Gary, thank you so much for your investigation into the truth - so many people were sold these goods - and purchased as untreated NATURAL gems. The co. has NOT offered to refund folks money - this give gem stone collecting a VERY VERY bad name = so sad to take people's hard earned money...very sad.

Could you be more specific on rumors that are floating around? It seems to me to be a bit reckless to go out and make a statement like this without being more specific, or having more information to back up this scare that you just put into a bunch of us. Thanks for any information you can add to help ease our minds in the time being one way or another.

Actually, hateful anonymous poster at the top, they ARE offering to refund everyone's money. I think this is an unfortunate event because while this company isn't known for their stellar honest selling practices, in this case they seem to be innocent. The company has said many times that "no gem lab was able to detect treatment." They sent many stones out to be treated, and they were returned with no treatment detected. No one in this witch hunt seems to be willing to acknowledge that very important fact.

We in the industry tend to get our knickers in a bunch without actually researching what the consumer thinks. Consumers recognize that wood is treated (i.e. stained, oiled, sealed, etc.) as it becomes furniture or flooring, fabric fibers are treated (i.e. dyed or bleached) before it becomes clothing, etc. But we talk about disclosure of treatment as if it's this big bad secret we're being forced to reveal--whereas if we'd just address it matter of factly as part of the process of getting the gem from the ground to the finger, the customer would most likely just say, "Oh, ok, that's how it's done," and leave it at that. It's time to stop making an issue out of a part of the sale process that really shouldn't be an issue.

Gary, you still have not answered my question. Why would you be so reckless to present this rumor this way during all of this? In my opinion all this does for you is make you look unprofessional. With nothing to back it up atleast that you are willing to speak of and still putting a statement out there like that. THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG (C'MON). I understand you wanting to present the news but, to do it and not show any reason why you would report this. Please help me understand the purpose of this at this time. Thanks. Please no bashing of me, I am really confused why this comment of copper treating with no facts is proper now.

The fact that clothing is dyed, etc. is common knowledge! It has nothing to do with selling as gemstone as UNTREATED, and failing to disclose the knowledge that is in fact treated(when known) in a timely manner.

Gary Roskin unprofessional...I don't think so. But let's consider the question at hand. So, where do such treatment assertions come from? Try past experience. Virtually every gem treatment disclosure of the past two decades has been preceded by denials or the disclosure of a treatment type deemed more acceptable than the one actually used to create/alter the gem. Just a few examples; Beryllium sapphire (claim: heat), Red sapphire (claim: different chemistry than ruby, new source, turned out to be diffusion treated. Be2 is now disclosed as Be as if Be has replaced “heated” as the accepted or “traditional” treatment for corundum.) It goes on and on. At the moment, I can't think of a treatment that was preceded in the market by a warning that it was coming. In that regard, Cathy is correct. The reason it is an issue today is because the gem trade has spent decades creating an illusion of rarity built on the premise that rough comes from the ground and then is merely faceted to release an already present inner beauty. But that rarely has any relationship to reality…and thus problems exist today that need not to. For example, as I am sure Gary observed at the show, ruby was dead. This is not what we had expected. We anticipated that ruby demand would be quite strong as people moved to acquire pre-embargo inventory. That does not seem to have happened. Instead, we found a market drowning in lead-glass filled ruby selling as low as a $1.50 p/c. Now, this combined with extremely high prices at the better end of the market has made ruby a bit of a joke. Few buyers seemed to know what to make of the market, and in my opinion, opted out of it all together. I can’t speak for Gary, but I suspect that in time the trade will know more about why andesine was able to increase its population so quickly, while also (in my observation) gain a uniformity of appearance.

Hey crazy anonymous person - third down. I'm NOT hateful to J-tv - what is wrong with you? CLEARLY you didn't read the article on Fair Trade Gems. I understand that they sent it to labs (although I don't think it was conclusive that there were no treatments to the stone) - maybe they should post the results from lab. I get that! However, bottom line, when you sell gemstone, or any product for that matter, it is your responsibility to ensure you know your source of your product. I wonder why they never sent the gem hunter 3 years ago when they made a conscious decision to begin selling the gem. By the way, they have NOT offered to refund money to people for their purchcases outside of their 30 day return policy...How long have you been working there?

I agree Stuart, JTV should offer up their gemological certs. I doubt any reputable gemological institute would state untreated, especially on a so called new gemstone, unless they were absolutely sure. I do believe JTV has known about this situation for quite awhile. When JTV found the mine, why didn't they follow this stone from mine to market to see exactly how it was treated (?) I would have! My gut feeling …is there is more news re; treatments to come. Not just gentle heat. Sure hope I’m wrong! Some eBay sellers are stating coated on a few of the Andesine/Lab. does anyone know what this is about? I don’t think stones are coated only one or two at a time, my understanding is this type of treatment is done in bulk. Thanks

Wow JTV bashing is not right as far as I am concerened except for the last two weeks. IMO JTV should have not let the buying frenzy happen like it did. If they would have just came out and said hey folks here it is and this is how we found out, I dont think we would be seeing the backlash that is occuring. If you bought those large Andesine/Labs 3 years ago and dont want them anymore, I would be glad to buy them for the original purchase price. Think it was around $20 a carat. I dont think I will get to many takers.

Anthony, the reason I mentioned the rumor of a possible diffusion treatment was to serve as a heads-up to anyone interested in buying andesine. It's a beautiful gemstone, but as Stuart pointed out, there is so much material on the market and so little information regarding enhancement, we really need to be cautious. Buyers need to be requiring enhancement guarantees in writing from suppliers. Suppliers need to do due diligence to be able to guarantee enhancement disclosure. Cathy, the gem labs can only do so much. They are not the policing agency for the industry. HPHT treated diamonds sneaked through the labs before Lazare Kaplan announced the process – and then helped the lab acquire before and after treated gems for research. Hundreds of thousands of carats of beryllium treated sapphire passed through the labs, identified as only heated, before it was discovered that color was created by diffusion. It took several labs doing very expensive and time consuming research to uncover the truth – and all based on a hunch by sharp gemologists telling themselves, “there’s too much material of all the same color for it to be simply heated.” While some suppliers hang their hat on the laboratory report that says “no evidence of heat,” you have to realize that all this really means is that the lab doesn’t have any current evidence that the stone’s been heated. It does not mean that the stone is absolutely positively unheated. Once rumors and hunches present themselves, the professional gem labs must do their research on unenhanced rough, enhanced rough and then cut gems. Getting the rough material is the first step in the process. Kudos to JTV if they have supplied the labs with before and after treatment materials for research. We will wait for the lab findings. Watch for the results to be published in the gemological literature and in articles on JCK Online and the magazine. As for JTV bashing, JTV got caught in the typical frenzy of a new find, a new gem material to offer for sale. In the rush to get it to market, they, like other suppliers, did not first find out more about the product. However, JTV should get some credit here as it is now the first supplier helping solve the source and enhancement mysteries.

Hi..I am a real amateur here but I have been caught up in this Andesine/Labradorite mess. I am glad to finally read some conclusive comments about the fact that we really don't know the whole story and there could me more here to be disclosed. So, Thank you.. Now my question...I am trying to send a stone back to Thailand and the Ebayer it came from but I have run into the import restrictions regarding Precious gemstones being sent back to Thailand (per the USPS website). So is this stone considered Precious? Also, has anyone else here returned a stone to Thailand successfully? Thank you!

Thank you Gary, However we as lay people and not intricately involved in the inside workings of the gemstone industry, felt there was no mystery to this gemstone except for the mine location. When this stone was being touted as untreated, who knew except for the insiders, that the untreated rough was not supplied to the gem labs along with the finished product? Until this is the case, I feel that a gemstone shouldn't be sold as untreated, (to do otherwise is making an assumption about treatment) only my humble opinion. Thank you again.

Jennifer, Sometimes the eBay vendors have a U.S. location to handle returns. Please check with the vendor, if you still have a problem try contacting eBay.

Right you are, Cathy. The end consumer is dependent on the retail jeweler, who is dependent on the gemstone supplier. With greater transparency from the mine to the counter, we will all benefit. Fair Trade Gems, along with industry organizations such as Jewelers of America, the International Colored Gemstones Association, the Gemological Institute of America, and the American Gem Trade Association, are the driving forces behind this movement for greater knowledge of a gemstone’s integrity. While this effort is not perfect, it is getting much better.

Hi Cathy, Thanks for the advice, I will post what ebay says. The vendor wants the gem shipped to Thailand. It was the USPS guy at the counter who stopped me. Oddly enough, Fedex does not list the same restrictions but it is 3x the price to ship. As a rank amateur, I agree w/ both Cathy & Gary, greater transparency is essential to this industry. Too often, I am asked by friends 'How are you sure you are not being sold cheap goods?' I tell them I have a jeweler I trust and can do some verification at home. But the general consensus is that I am taking a huge risk. My own mother would rather negotiate the price of a new car than buy more fine jewelry!

Ps..Is Andesine a Precious gem or a semi-precious or just not precious at all?

"Precious" vs "Semi-Precious" - - - These are actually old terms that we try not to use today ... but old habits die hard. The "precious" gems are diamond, emerald, ruby, and sapphire. Every other natural gem used in jewelry is considered "semi-precious." But don't tell someone that their $5,000 aquamarine, or $45,000 Paraiba tourmaline is semi-precious. They're all beautiful and "precious," don't you think?

Gary..yes I do think they're all precious,as long as their not heated for 30 days, tumbled, and then diffusion treated with copper!

The fact is folks you are telling us that bought this stone from JTV that we shouldn't be upset with them that this stone is color treated. Tell me why we shouldn't be? You go even futhers to explain that woods are stains and frabics are are dyed ect for color but your missing the whole point. One if there are lab reports JTV needs to show them to us and (Two) Be honest with yourself one of thier BIGGEST selling ploys with this stone has been (It's natural) Hello? What's not to get here. I'd love to know who had the rights to the minds in the Congo? Now that would answer a lot of questions wouldn't it?

Thanks for all the information on the old terms. I agree about the Aqua and Tourmalines (I personally have a large Aqua I would not part with for the world). I think Yvonne has a point, I would also like to see the lab reports from JTV's sources. I also think the main point is that Yvonne & other JTV customers feel lied to and cheated. But I would also point out to Yvonne & others that many sellers/resellers are treating this as if it is no big deal and that it will not and/or they will not let it affect the asking prices for the stones. The comment I am hearing is that 'Well, Tanzanite is heat treated and is equally rare and look what it sells for!" so, perhaps if the value is truly not affected (hope springs eternal) then this might encourage fuller disclosure of all treatments/practices.

Yvonne and Jennifer, You’ve pointed out some very important issues. First, regarding laboratory reports: The labs do not guarantee that a stone has or has not been heat treated/enhanced. Seeing a lab report therefore would not solve the issue here, which is to first be certain of how your gems have been mined and processed prior to sale. This is the way you can be assured of the gem’s integrity. So JTV was too quick and too excited to sell andesine, just like many others in the jewelry industry. They did so by relying on the lab to tell them whether any enhancement could be detected. And none was detected. Now give JTV some credit for not only for finding the mine, and finding that the gems were not naturally red, but for also making the announcement to the world regarding possible enhancement. No professional international gem laboratory has uncovered this information. JTV has told us that the gems are enhanced by heat. JTV has also mentioned that they are supplying the gem labs with gem material to determine if anything else has been used to enhance the gems. So yes, you could be rightfully upset being told that the gems were unenhanced, but you should also give JTV points for their findings, and their cooperation with the gem labs. Now to the point of value and heat treatment: Yes, 99% of all tanzanite is heated. So you’d pretty much be without tanzanite, except in museums and royal crowns, if not for the enhancement by heat. Blue topaz would be pretty much the same way, as Mother Nature only makes blue topaz in a very pale blue. All of the rest of the blue topaz you see has been enhanced through irradiation. So again, here, enhancement is the sole source for the commercial gemstone and therefore the value cannot be compared to a “natural color” gem of the same species – except for those rare collector museum quality gems. Now with andesine, we are really not certain yet if there would be any value/price difference. There is natural red sunstone from Oregon. Sunstone is in the same labradorite feldspar group. Is there an andesine mine in the Congo? Maybe Jewel Hunter Jack will find out for us. Is that andesine natural color, or heated? Is there any red andesine in the world that is natural color, or like tanzanite, is it pretty much all heated? And is the material from Mongolia only heated? These are all questions for which we are all looking for answers. Cool heads prevail. While we search, and research for answers, for those of you who have purchased andesine, wear them in good health and enjoy them. When the answers come available, look for them here on line or in JCK Magazine.

Gary I am sorry, I forgot to ask one question regarding your response. You said, “there’s too much material of all the same color for it to be simply heated.” What would you say about the green Andesine that seems to be all differen't shades of green rather than just one?????? This is something that keeps making me wonder how there could be the same things done to the same base stone and yet all the shades in the end seem to be differen't. I have over 70 of just the green, and very few are of the exact same color. Thanks for your response, and any other comments on this would be great.

Gary I don't know what happened to my first post that I actually sent before the last one, thanking you for your response to my questions.

Hi Gary, The integrity of all the red and green feldspar, is in question (other than the Oregon material-proven) If there are other sources for this material...let's say the Congo, that is natural, how are we to know if the material we own has been treated or not. I just read a post about the rumor you referenced: heating for 30days tumbling, and cu, diffusion from another source. How will we know who has what? If any other treatment is proven, it will bring into question, every red or green feldspar, sold prior to the information re; treatment being released and in my opinion cause the value to plummet, (only my opinion) whether they are treated or not. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. The red and green feldspar aka andesine-Labradorite I own are all different shades of red and green...until recently, when I purchased three small stones, from JTV, they were exactly the same color, I was surprised by this. I purchased the three hoping to make a match out of two of them...but they were all a perfect match, which I hadn't seen before on any of my other stones. Thank you in advance for your valuable opinion on this matter.

P.S. I also believe the entire gemstone industry as a whole, has serious credibility issues ahead of it.

Real quickly regarding color and enhancement... great example is tanzanite - almost all are heated and yet there are dozens of different hues (purples to blues and everything in between), in different saturations (vivid to dull) and tones (dark to light). No rhyme or reason - that's Mother Nature. Why some andesine would be colored green instead of red is all up to the trace elements that may be present in the host stone - and mother nature. An interesting example might be looking at the trace element chromium - a foreign element found in emerald and ruby - which creates the color, green in emerald, and red in ruby... same trace element, different color for different gem species. We really do not yet know what's happening with andesine. ... As for determination of heat treatment... once the labs have looked at both the natural and enhanced materials, they can usually find some unique identification feature that will allow them to make the call. This identification test may end up being something hi-tech such as Infrared Spectroscopy, or x-ray topography. Or it might be something as simple as fluorescence to Ultraviolet Light. At this point, we're all waiting for the labs to figure it out...

Thank you Gary, Just so I understand this correctly...even if these stones have been treated with a high tech treatment, they could be all be different colors due to the trace elements found in each piece of rough? So the difference in color has nothing to due with whether the stone is gently heated, or some more diabolical treatment? By the way emerald, ruby was a great comp. another would be emerald, bixbit, and the best comp. of all Oregon sunstone, which is available in many of the same colors. I hope they're (gem Labs) working feverishly on the I.D. of this stone. There are rumors flying all over the place from very reputable individuals in the field. Some claim to have knowledge of this treatment, but dare not tell until the labs come back. Thank you again, for your time Gary. And please if you have any pull with the gemstone industry, push them to police themselves better then they do now, and implement stricter guidelines for themselves, before a Federal agency needs to step in to due so. Thank you

Yes, as far as I know, whatever the method of enhancement, in general, if a pile of Andesine is enhanced by the same method, the final result should be pretty much based upon the trace elements already within the stone. Gentle heat vs. high heat could make a difference, but usually, the reason for using more heat is because the stone didn’t change, or didn’t change enough. Some gemstones, in particular sapphires, can be heated many times, by many different treatment labs, before the final results are acceptable to the owner of the gems. … And I wouldn’t use the word “diabolical” to describe an enhancement. Some are certainly more hi-tech than others, but if everything is disclosed properly, we do not have a problem with that. The problems come when someone knows that the stones have been enhanced but claim otherwise, as was the case of the beryllium treated sapphire. Now that we know about the enhancement, these gems sell just as well as the unenhanced sapphires, but for much much much less money, of course. When it comes to color value, Mother Nature’s color still rule! … As for your comparison of emerald and bixbite, here is a case where the trace element coloring each gem is different… chromium for emerald, and manganese for bixbite. So, same mineral, beryl, but different foreign element, giving different colors, and therefore different varietal names. Maybe that’s why some andesine turns green and others red. We don’t know the answer to that one yet. As for pushing the industry for better business practices, JCK along with many jewelry industry organizations are doing just that. And it’s working. Take a look through some of our JCK stories highlighting Jewelers of America, Fair Trade Gems, the Council for Responsible Jewellery Practices, and the Jewelers Vigilance Committee, just to name a few. I hope you will be pleasantly surprised at how much is already being done.

Gary, with all due respect re;“diabolical” I use that term in reference to UNDISCLOSED hi-tech treatments. Thank you, kindly for the wealth of information you impart on us.

Gary, I don't know if you have seen it yet, but you need to check out the ISG newsletter that just came out today. Big news from Robert James about Andesine Labradorite. The newsletter was mailed to subscribers, and is not on the ISG website. If you don't get this, you can go to the JTV blog dated 4/16/08 and it is posted there. Happy reading!

If you presently own JTV "Andesine" please go to www.gembusters.com for more information, or you can email me directly at MLGAUTO@hotmail.com.

I am wondering about the time line when Robert James of International School of Gemology, started to create a buzz about the possibilities of treatment other than heating and the time of JTV disclosing their find? The news is out about the facts of diffusion treatments. You can find more information on yourgemologist.com....Also, Robert James recd a lot of backlash about the findings of the treatments. He was vindicated. As well, he found out that the Andesine stones JTV sold matched the yellow labradorite coming out of Mexico. What do you know...JTV claims that they were the ones that found the material in Mexico another...oops... Does anyone remember that? They were so proud of the fact that they had "guys in the field" looking for Fire Opal whey they discovered the mines. Pretty suspicious that they discovered the Mexican yellow labradorite and also it has been found that the lab reports show both yellow labradorite and "Red Andesine" are a match chemically with a ramen spectroscope. I also thought JTV had the andesine cut in their facilities. How did they not know...come on they have some of the best in the field working for them...they knew...no mater what spin they put on the story...they are in the business of making money..bottom line..they were caught..what next?

So if the Mexican yellow labradorite JTV is selling has the same chemical composition as Red Andesine they are selling, some one nuked it to make Red Andesine, right? None of the yellow labradorite came out of the ground red. How does JTV come across Red Andesine that matches the yellow? If you look at the reports on yourgemologist.com it shows that they match. How is that possible? Especially whey they claim that Jack, from JTV, found it in Mongolia...Something is not adding up. Does anyone out there know if it is possible for Mongolian labradorite to match Mexican labradorite? Maybe Robert James, from International School of Gemology needs to test the Mongolian material. I would like to see if the story even jives. the plot thickens....

My head hurts from all of this information. Is there really any in Tibet? It was the 1st official gem stone of any Olympics. Was this mined in the States, sent to Tibet and or the Congo, treated and then sent as if it was mined there? I have rec'd certs with some of my stones stating origin. Who all was fooled?

If you are looking for information on the Andesine Labradorite that JTV, other TV Shoppings and gemstones that are sold on ebay go to gembusters.com and click on forums. Look under Andesine Controversy and hopefully this will answer all of your questions.